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I'm so tired of this shit. I know men who are cool and nice and amazing people. The internet makes it seem like they're all perverted women haters
People are people, and even the extremists are not nearly as extreme as people would make out. Yes, there are absolutely a few terrible men, just like there are some terrible misandrists acting like everyone is that terrible. Both are the minority.
Everyone on gender war subreddits would STRONGLY benefit from not being on gender war subreddits. This shit isn’t real, but an algorithm is out there specifically designed to tell you either that all men are terrible, that all women are terrible, or that all men/women think all women/men are terrible if that’s what will keep you scrolling. Even a slightly different algorithm would vastly change that impression.
It's so frustrating to see critiques such as "unrealistic beauty standards" being co-opted for gender wars bullshit.
Pretty much everything gets co-opted for the gender wars these days. It’s why there’s so much chauvinism and misandry on the internet, but people also tend to be bigger assholes on the internet rather than in person.
Can't take a punch through a screen
Yuuup, can’t fuck around and find out while sipping hot cocoa at home.
Especially when studies have shown that most men prefer women who wear less makeup and don't meet those "standards" that women hold themselves to.
https://preview.redd.it/hrqyd29hf20g1.jpeg?width=716&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d0e5c422d8de5b37d5e77b0beaf7cebb0c4dabb9
Spending time out in the real world you will learn that most men are comfortable with a rather shitty status quo enough to not do anything about it...
Its not that mosy men are terrible, its just that most men are happy to benefit from the terrible men without speaking up.
Exactly. I think it’s so disingenuous to act like it’s just a small minority of men and that gendered issues aren’t real beyond the internet. If it’s just a few men who are misogynistic and everyone else is normal and good, then why have women been oppressed for so long?
Most men are complacent to a system that harms all of us but benefits them the most.
Most people just don’t have the time to worry about the unfortunate. Everyone has their own challenges. Is it misogynistic to not care about random women the same way you don’t care about random men?
Who said I didn’t care about random men? I actually do care about the ways men are disadvantaged by the patriarchy. I also care about how minority men are discriminated against.
Also, it’s not just random women being hurt. It’s a systemic issue. Idk where you live but if you’re in the US, women as a class are being disadvantaged. We’ve taken major hits to reproductive rights, just to name one. You can’t just write that off as some random women having challenges.
Ohh that makes more sense, thanks
Ditto for women...
Real and accurate
As someone currently married to (not for much longer) a very misogynistic family full of gross and predatory men, it’s a harsh reality for a lot of us. One day I’ll get to know some really nice men also, but for now I’m a bit jaded.
Same here.
Very fair. I hope things look up for you
☹️
The internet does not do that. You guys just lack comprehension and good faith skills. Crime statistics and the anecdotal experiences of basically every woman do not care about your anecdotal experience or low standards for “decency”
Let me correct you: crime statistics + your Us vs Them mentality that colors and biases your interpretation of crime statistics.
If you paid attention to them, you would notice that it's not "men", but it's a subset of men who overwhelmingly commit most of the crimes. And as men are by far the worst victims of homicides, then this subset of men is nefarious to other men too (I would say even more, as there is nothing worse than homicide).
If you want to blame a group, don't blame the vast majority of men who are good and balanced. Blame this specific subset of men. Your argument about statistics without nuance, if used on races, would be very negrophobic.
That last word you used is ironically super racist. Are you 85? No one would ever say that lmao and you are wrong, bc there is nuance behind the black crime statistics. The vast majority of exonerated crimes are black men. That alone shows that they do not disproportionally do crime and that they are disproportionally targeted by over policing.
No one said 90% of men are doing all the crime, come back when you can respond to what I’m actually saying lmao
I am a Black Cameroonian man. I am in my early thirties, thanks.
There are many forms of racism, as race is a social construct. Hitler was racist against East Europeans for instance.
That's why I insist on stating the specific form of racism that I am talking about: negrophobia, or racism against dark skinned individuals. And no, it's not racist. "Negro" means "Black" in Spanish. 🤷♂️
Thanks for nuancing your opinion on this matter. But you are proving my point: not doing it like you didn't with men, would have been negrophobic. It was to expose your unwillingness to approach the issue of crime statistics with a better lens.
Taking some time off ts and talking to real people in the real world usually makes this type of weird gender war thinking wear off.
In the real world, women regularly get stalked and harassed.
Ok? What's your point? Awful things happen to everyone because of awful people every day in real life. Some way worse than others. A lot of unreported fucked up shit happen to innocent men every day as well and no one bats an eye. I'd rather punish the small few who are responsible for said awful occurrences instead of blaming those who have nothing to do with it. It's far more efficient.
How frequent do you think it is? Based on your intuition. You say its a small few men, give a guess at numbers to it.
Or on the reverse, how regularly do you think women are harassed by men?
I'd say it's still a pretty big number, but not enough to be a large chunk of men. I forgot where I saw this but it would be about 5% of men in the US if we're talking about this country only, with many of them being repeated offenders (obviously places like India are hellholes though, and we need to change the culture there FAST). There's was also a study where it was shown that recently, there has been a large uptick in assaults done by women on men/boys. Even more frequently than those done by men on women/girls.
But again, why not focus on punishing the actual perpetrators instead of blaming those who have nothing to do with it? You do know the people busting their asses to punish these guys are majority male, right? It just makes no sense to me why you would blame an entire group for the actions of a deranged subset.
Ill give you some statistics, Teenage girls get it the worst, because men are most likely to perform these behaviours on vulnurable women.
64% of girls and young women aged 13-21 have experienced sexual harassment at school and college in the past year.
68% said they had changed their everyday behaviour in the past year to try to avoid sexual harassment.
For women aged 16-34, in the previous 12 months: 45% had cat-calls, whistles, unwanted sexual comments or jokes; 25% felt they had been followed.
From a recent report for young women in London by FORWARD‑UK: “83% have faced sexual harassment or assault in the last two years.
Among girls aged 13-18: 60% reported unwanted attention such as whistling; 19% said it happens often or most of the time.
No one is punishing these men. If it was 5% of men harassing 64% of girls in the space of a year, they are either going entirely unpunished for doing so, or perhaps fewer admit to harassing women or consider what they did to be harassment than you think.
Most of these go completely unpunished.
That's definitely an issue. And for sure I agree with you on that. In all honesty I personally believe we need to change some of the laws concerning these types of crimes. While some of these culprits are usually punished, the law due to stupid circumstances either doesn't punish them enough, or just straight up doesn't allow for some of them to be arrested due to lack of certain strict criteria needed for these guys to be punished in a way that would be seen as justified. There's also the recent problem of some of these guys being let off easy because of activist judges who would rather see a guy with repeated physical assault convictions on the streets because of political reasons rather than actually delivering him to justice.
I still don't think we should blame innocent men for this.
There's limits to what laws can do. Male culture as a whole needs to be changed, and men need to be held much more socially responsible for their actions.
It is not reasonable to expect the law to deal with every case of wolf whistling underage girls in public. What is the girl supposed to do? Call the police right in front of the man and he either hurts her or just walks away?
You can't get the law involved for every single instance of harassment, including at school or work. It could put you in danger too.
I do think men need to hold eachother accountable as well. I can say from personal experience, when I was underage and followed off the train by a drunk man who kept insisting I come back to his place, no one came to help me as I stood in a very public space waiting for anyone to step in at all.
India will be back on track once the older generation dies out -a pakistani with indian friends
Yes because as we know nearly every man has story where he was catcalled as a teenager, or sent unsolicited pussy pics on social media, or sexually harassed by someone significantly older than them who could easily physically harm them if they were to get upset
You'd me surprised as to how often it actually does happen for men. Many men don't actually realize they've been groomed as children by women they trusted until they are much older, and/or they dont see what happened to them as grooming because of how they've been told to view it. And a good number of men who have been assaulted by women are too embarrassed to talk about it due to the reactions both men and women have given them. Trust me, I'm one of them. I've talked to a large number of other men who've had the same experiences. It surprised me how many men were victims of this type of thing, too, and how truly often it's viewed as no big deal by the masses.
But what is this, the Victim Olympics? Why are we fighting over who gets harassed more often? I'm saying that it's better to punish those responsible than to hate on the innocent just because they are alike genetically.
Victim Olympics is a fucking good way to describe gender war
Real shit man this stuff is fucking ridiculous.
The problem is most of the people that are operating as normal responsible humans are not coming to Reddit to discuss gender politics.
Anyone who comes on to talk about “all women/men do this” are not wrong in how some people do operate. But it’s absolutely grandstanding. I refuse to believe any woman who projects that all men are pigs who only follow strict beauty standards imposed by media isn’t also refusing to date or peruse men who have legitimate interest in her solely based on these men’s personalities.
I’m very confident that these same women are refusing advances from “good guys” who are unkempt, dumpy and broke. If that wasn’t the case then these women complaining about “all men” wouldn’t be single. There’s plenty of fish in the sea that are normal working stiffs who have decent personalities, I’m sure.
Either that, or I have a completely different understanding of what attraction means. If I’m going to spend one on one time with someone I have no obligation to be around and have little in common personality wise, than they very well are going to be attractive and someone I want to have sex with.
I have plenty of women I know that I enjoy discussing politics with, sharing memes, seeing movies and going out to dinner with other people included. But I also have no interest in having a romantic relationship with them because I do not see them as attractive. And yes, sometimes it’s simply petty. Their lips are too small, their teeth or crooked, their breasts are too large/too small.
People are allowed to be perfectionists in who they choose to ultimately spend their entire life with. That they want to have children with and mold their personality too. I do not want to have someone I don’t want to have sex with regularly sleeping in my bed telling me how to live my life.
It’s not my reasonably to appease them. And I really feel these people who argue to the bone about sexual politics fail to realize the irony that if they pursued their own dogma than they wouldn’t be here complaining about the opposite sex. They would be having sex and in a fulfilling relationship where they have no wants.
And neither do these women. I will bet you everything I own.
You can point out a problem even if there is many people who aren't causing the problem. Do I have amazing male friends and family? Absolutely. Do I experience shitty behavior from men? I still do.
Ignoring it does not make problems go away. It's important to acknowledge systemic problems without going #notallmen.
So because you experience poor behaviour, instead of presuming that the behaviour is a subset of men, who the men you like would disagree with, your reaction is instead to assume (and pretend) that there is some overarching force that is causing those bad men to be dissatisfying to you, or objectively negative, even evil?
And that it is the responsibility of all men including those men that you like to somehow change, and fight this invisible war, until all men are perfect? You can't just say "I experience some shitty behaviour" and "there are systemic issues" in the same breath without at least substantiating what you're referring to.
Even if I were to agree with you, I would still think this makes it sound like you're just using "systemic" as a catch all to manipulate people into having to do what you want.
Because its a part of male culture, because women rarely do this shit to the same extent. wanting men as a culture to stop harassing you is not "manipulation".
Yeah it's the system. Men in the system, women in the system, but mostly the system
I'm definitely kind of perverted, but not a woman hater. Just a broad spectrum of interests.
But I am a perverted woman hater
No one has ever claimed that all men are like this. Men are a demographic in society and while not every man acts this way almost every woman has experienced behaviors fitting of both of these from men, encouraged by other men around them. It has gotten better over time bit by bit but these are still universal experiences, and heavily exacerbated by the internet where you CANNOT exist as a woman in basically any capacity without men either negging you and talking about how ugly you are or sexually harassing you, sending you unsolicited dick pics or "sliding into your dms". These aren't always the same men but sometimes they are, acting one way in private and then another in public.
I wish they were truely a minority, the experience of myself and a lot of women I know is that the majority of men are not cool and amazing to women.
The men you choose to get to know, yes they can absolutely be amazing. Though even then, often you will find some things they have done to women in the past that are not great either if you get to know them well enough.
However, if a strange man starts talking to you on the train or something, especially if you are a teenager, chances are they are not talking to you because they think it would make for a pleasant conversation only and talking with them for even a minute can very quickly escalate.
And when dating, it is extremely common for men to be shit or dangerous.
Yea seriously I’m like where are all these evil men? And then I remember there’s assholes everywhere I just avoid them because it’s very easy to tell who’s an asshole.
Ragebait gets clicks
That is because a lot if men on the internet do not know what grass looks like.
People who are perpetually online definitely do not behave like the people i know in real life.