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I really wish they change the scalings for all skills.
A +5 wand with mid rolls is better than a +...
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Just remove it. It’s not even an interesting stat to play around with.
In PoE 1 it is good because:
a) It is much more limited (+2 for your build on a rare item is good)
b) Different skills scale with different things. It competes with prefixes in PoE 1, so some skills scale better with added damage, some scale better with increased or +levels (see elemental hit). This provides more crafting variety
In poe1 +levels is a prefix, so competes directly with other pure damage affixes on weapons.
I mean the amount of +skills is arbitrary, it just depends on how valuable each point is.
I'm inclined to say more points is better because it's gives more granularity to the roll.
It would be arbitrary if it were only about the level/value ratio. It's true that currently the value is way too high for how variable the + amount of that affix is.
But if they were to reduce the value instead of the amount, you'd still have the same problem, only it'd be lower tiers being useless instead of lack of the affix itself. "Granularity" doesn't apply here because the value is a set linear increase per tier.
Reducing the amount of +skills available instead solves the super high mana scaling problem, it solves the crafting variety issue where everything revolves around Essence of Battle, and the only changes that would need to be implemented are affix roll weight. The changes that would need to occur for reducing value would be huge, as all skills would require re-balancing around leveling progression.
The main change that is needed though, is just introducing skills that don't benefit from +skills as much for variety's sake.
I mean you can say the same thing about any item damage tiers. Less damage is always worse than more damage, and you'll always want the max value. The difference is more tiers gives you more opportunities to upgrades. Gearing is much spikier when the rolls are small range and high value.
Sure, if all affixes provided the same value, you'd be correct. But you are then ignoring the value difference between modifiers, which was your original argument! So I don't know what point you are trying to make.
This is objectively correct item design I think. When it is limited to +2 and there are other good stats you're competing with, +1 is totally useless. It would be like comparing a +200% damage weapon to a +100% damage weapon.
That is incorrect, most skills in PoE 2 gain base damage/added damage effectiveness/mana cost exponentially per level, and the power of the +skill affix is determined by total levels (so +1 at level 30 is a much bigger jump in power than at level 20).
At no point is a +2 increase even near double the effectiveness over a +1 increase, except for skill level 1 - in which case, it is irrelevant.
There might be outlier skills I am not thinking of, but nothing comes to mind.
What? Exponential increase would mean it does exactly what I said.
If each level is always the same proportional increase (how exponential growh works) +1 would be, say, 15%more damage. +2 would be 15% more damage twice, or 1.15*1.15, or 32% more damage total.
Edit: maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're claiming, but my idea is that proportionally +4 is closer to +5 than a +1 is to a +2 - compared to other stats. If would be like if %increased damage only came in blocks of 100%. +100% would be pretty useless compared to +200%, but +400% and +550% wouldn't be so far off each other.
Yea that would make Unique Weapons more useable aswell
Disagree. What’s next after removing it? Critical hit bonus? Crit chance? I dislike that everybody wants to just remove it rather than balance it. It’s a hell of a lot better than the extra damage on tuesdays type of modifiers from other games. GGG just needs to do a little work on balancing some of the modifiers.
Critical hits are worthless without base damage. Crit damage is worthless without crit. Base damage only goes so far without multipliers. Crit, Ailments, Elements, all have nodes and gems that modify their damage output. Like Cast on Crit, Blinded enemies take more damage, damage increased based on the amount of elemental ailments etc.
+Skills is just its own multiplier that has no interactions with the skill tree or gems. It's the most generic damage stat by a mile.
I’d rather have a generic modifier over more complicated modifiers personally. But to each their own I suppose. People would have a lot less issue with this modifier if it wasn’t as powerful as it is, and that can easily be fixed by adjusting a few values here and there.
If they reduce the power it will be useless compared to every other stat. Because all it does is add power with no way to modify it further.
That’s why it sucks. It’s either bis or useless.
Yeah I see what you mean, that’s a good point. It may be that just removing it from weapons then and leaving it for amulets and gloves might be a better way to balance it, still keep it a strong stat, but less availability so it isn’t exactly everywhere. In my eyes getting +4 skills on an amulet is extremely hard and/or expensive to achieve so it should be one of the best rolls you can get on an amulet. Idk, i just actually like the modifier because of the simplicity of it I guess, though I definitely agree it needs to be toned down in ways. Being able to easily get +6 attack skills on every weapon with a cheap essence is not ideal.
Can you explain how it is less interesting than any other stat?
The only problem this stat has is that it is currently too strong. If anything it is more interesting than just plain increased damage stats because it comes with the downside of higher mana costs.
Just limit it to +3 (or 2 or whatever it takes to make it balanced) at most (or tune down level scaling of skills) so other stats can compete.
Because most stats require a combination of multipliers to pop off. 100% crit on a new level 1 character is actually not that amazing without crit damage and damage to multiply it. Flat damage is good for a long time but falls off if you don’t start getting % based multipliers to boost it.
Gems just get generically stronger. +skills are the strongest stats you can put on a new character all the way to lvl 100.
Okay but that is only a number problem. You can just adjust the numbers so it isnt generically strong/strongest in all situations.
Also on a low level character a big % increase will often be better than a few gem levels. I mean a 100% increased for a level 1 character with no other increases is double damage.
A 100% increase is only worth anything depending on the base damage. If your base is 2 damage, going to 4 damage is trivial. The gems add additional base damage. Just look at your dps when you play through the game when you upgrade your gem.
What even is an interesting stat to play around with in this game, though? I mean really, it's been something I've taken a lot of downvotes for repeatedly pointing out, but there are literally no interesting stats on items in this game. +Levels to skills is at least double sided (because of added mana cost), meaning there is something to consider when stacking it. That actually makes it one of the most interesting stats items can currently roll, because basically every other stat you'd want is just a strictly "win more" stat. But it still doesn't do - what is IMO - the thing that actually makes itemization interesting, which is actually change your gameplay. The evolution of gameplay as you progress is the whole driving force of the genre. PoE 2 is phenomenal at that when it comes to skill gems and the passive tree, but its items simply don't deliver on that at all, at any point. Not even the unique items. They are literally just stat sticks and their only purpose is to gate your progress and give you something to chase, not actually make your gameplay more exciting. Crafting is the only thing that makes itemization interesting, but it's just the acquisition part that's interesting, not the actual items themselves. I think this game is extremely behind the rest of the genre when it comes to the quality of the items themselves.
It's only more mana PER USE. It's not more mana PER POINT OF DAMAGE.
Ok, but that's still more mana relative to other damage affixes, which would lower your mana cost per point of damage, so I don't see how that's any kind of counter point, you're just shifting the frame of reference.
Right but the few gems that work like that could easily be changed to something more interesting. Minion levels could scale with your intelligence, or your spell power, or something else that requires you to make interesting node decisions and gear choices.
If you for example had to stack int to make minions stronger. Then naturally the nodes that give you power from int stacking would also be much more valuable.
There is no nodes that affect or alter skill levels though. So it’s just a generic mandatory stat.
They are just hypothetical examples I thought of in like 30 seconds. Obviously I hope GGG is putting a lot more thought into it.
The point is there is many ways to replace generic +skills.
Anything that gets removed needs to be replaced. Items could use more interesting affixes in general imo
Maybe make it part of the socketable system only, i.e. the rune of wisdom. BUT you could add even more flavor by adding a sort of “enchanted” socket that you can only obtain from chance, like vaal orbs. These enchanted sockets would be the only ones powerful enough to hold socketables deemed unique or whatever term that could be used to describe them. It would add more complexity and frustration to crafting end game min-max gear, so it would be right in GGG’s wheel house.
It's only not interesting if it's mandatory.
I don't think there's anything wrong with it if different skills have different scaling weights, or if it's enough of a trade off with other stats. It just does too much and forces you to take it.
I think a good way to improve it would be to split +skills into different mods. Maybe you need +fire skill and +proj skills to specialize the item for your build, but maybe that forces you to give up cast rate or something to get such high +skills.
Ya exactly. If there was less damage and the levels operated more like quality where they alter the ability without all the raw damage you might not even care for what is being altered.
It’s like minions in Diablo 2. Skill levels determine the amount of skeletons you have. But at some point you have enough and you need to increase their damage instead.
Compared to damage as extra which is?
Edit: I think I get it now. All other stats are “additive” with each other, but gem levels are not. Each gem level is a multiplier and just as impactful as the last, compared to any other stat in the game.
But that is what makes it unique and interesting IMO
Yeah but when you combine the two, that's the problem. Like some uniques could handle competing against "as extra", but no way it competes with +6 and 2x "as extra", unless you find some very niche thing. So it might just be another stat, but the amount of base dmg that "another stat" increases is a tad bit too much compared to everything else.
Okay but that is purely a number problem which can be solved (by nerfing how many +level you get or by nerfing level scaling past 20 or buffing other damage stats).
None of what you said explains why +gem levle is more boring than other stats.
Because I never said it was?
Man i absolutely hate damage as extra, its such a lazy mod.
Damage as extra has elemental or physical properties which can augment your skill and further be iterated on with nodes and gems.