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Weaponized reporting: what we’re seeing and what we’re doing(self.ModSupport)
submitted 6 years ago by worstnerdReddit Admin: Safety to /r/ModSupport (174.7k)
564 commentsredditother-discussions (2+)subreddit-indexmessage modsop-focus

Hey all,

We wanted to follow up on [last week’s post](https://www.reddit.com/r/ModSupport/comments/...

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[–][deleted]2 points6 years ago* (edited 4 minutes after)
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[–]Phallindrome16 points6 years ago

Let's be realistic here. Subs like The_Donald thrive on content that violates ToS/various laws/common decency. Those mod teams will remove ToS-violating content, sure; several hours later, or maybe the next day after it's gotten all the views/replies/upvotes it was going to anyways. Much of that content could be easily filtered from ever appearing in the first place through automod, but these teams choose not to do it. So, it's hard to be that sympathetic to the plight.

permalinkparentcontexthide replies (3)author-focusas-ofpreserve
[–]Greydmiyu8 points6 years ago* (edited 1 day, 2 hours after)

Subs like The_Donald thrive on content that violates ToS/various laws/common decency.

There are more subs than that. For example, let's look at /r/SelfAwarewolves , /r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM, and /r/TopMindsOfReddit as examples. Two of those three will trawl The_Donald for posts that violate their sensibilities, XPost or screenshot it to their sub where it get voted straight to /r/all. If the point of a sub being quarantined is to make it so the content from that sub doesn't make it to /r/all, and only people who are explicitly looking for that content can find it, why then do other subs get to repost their tripe under the guise of criticism to circumvent that very intent?

Then, of course, there's the matter that all three subs will post content with direct links or screenshots with full usernames in the clear. Other subs which repost information in that form require identifying information to be removed to prevent harassment. Given that people who post there are often also the same people who will complain about a "harassment campaign" when the same is done to them (quote reply on Twitter, posting screen caps with username in the clear to the "wrong" sub, etc) how can that not also be considered the same?

How does this tie into the topic at hand? I report that crap when it comes up. I'm betting the mods who get those reports are hoping to go to the admins claiming that it is report abuse. The fact that it is hitting /r/all means that the admins should be aware of it happening and doing bupkiss about it, or they are unaware and ignorant of what is popular on the site at any given time.

permalinkparentcontexthide replies (2)author-focusas-ofpreserve
[–]maybesaydie14 points6 years ago

I rarely report report abuse and have never reported anything from TMOR for report abuse.

reddit requires neither screenshots nor username redaction. While a few subreddits require it there is nothing in the TOS that even mentions this non-issue. Are you saying you want the TOS changed and special rules applied to the many meta subreddits? I notice that you fail to mention r/WatchRedditDie, r/subredditcancer, r/shitpoliticssays and other subs of that ilk. Arethey exempt?

permalinkparentcontexthide replies (1)author-focusas-ofpreserve
[–]Greydmiyu5 points6 years ago* (edited 29 minutes after)

2nd EDIT: I'm leaving the text as is but I misspoke in here by saying /r/all, instead of /r/popular. I conflated the two. So any place where I said /r/all, I meant /r/popular. Thanks to Maybesaydie for questioning me on the /r/all content so I can correct it.

First, thanks. You're the first person to respond even though I've watched the vote on this comment fluctuate like lava lamp.

reddit requires neither screenshots nor username redaction.

Subs like The_Donald thrive on content that violates ToS/various laws/common decency.

There are three criteria there. While the username redaction is not a violation of TOS (which you covered) that still leaves the other two.

That comes down to common decency. Now, given that other subs require it out of common decency to prevent harassment of the individuals in question are you saying that you aren't so concerned? This is exactly why, later on, I pointed out that many of the same people who traffic to your sub are the same people who would consider what your sub does a coordinated harassment campaign.

Now, let's take a gander at the Content Policy, specifically "Unwelcome Content", section 3, bullet points 4, 5, 6.

  • Encourages or incites violence.

Does reposting screenshots from other social media count? Not saying it happens, just saying that it is something to look at.

  • Threatens, harasses, or bullies or encourages others to do so

Reddit is a place for conversation, and in that context, we define this behavior as anything that works to shut someone out of the conversation through intimidation or abuse, online or off.

So, you don't feel that your sub might be a tad intimidating when people know that your subs are there to crosspost and/or post a screenshot of their actions for mockery?

Behavior can be harassing or abusive regardless of whether it occurs in public content (e.g. a post, comment, username, subreddit name, subreddit styling, sidebar materials, etc.) or private messages/chat.

So public posts count.

Being annoying, downvoting, or disagreeing with someone, even strongly, is not harassment. However, menacing someone, directing abuse at a person or group, following them around the site, encouraging others to do any of these actions, or otherwise behaving in a way that would discourage a reasonable person from participating on Reddit crosses the line.

"...directing abuse at a person or group, following them around the site, encouraging others to do any of these actions, or otherwise behaving in a way that would discourage a reasonable person from participating on Reddit crosses the line."

So what, exactly, do you call it where you have a sub which is trolling through other subs, looking for material to crosslink/repost for mockery and upvotes? Sounds like following those people around the site, and the upvotes are encouragement.

I mean, it's considered a harassment campaign when someone your subscribers disagrees with posts a screenshot to their social media when the screen name is in the clear. Sure, you can argue that technically that's not the case but that is precisely why other subs require the redaction so they know they are absolutely in the clear.

So at best, at best you can say you're right on a technicality that most reasonable people would probably consider scummy. Anything other than that and you're in violation of the TOS.

  • Is personal and confidential information

No. Reddit is quite open and pro-free speech, but it is not okay to post someone's personal information or post links to personal information. This includes links to public Facebook pages and screenshots of Facebook pages with the names still legible.

As for the "reddit requires neither screenshots nor username redaction." For TMOR, a technicality. On the other hand, do you know how many times I have seen Twitter screenshots in the other two I mentioned with real names in the clear. While it mentions Facebook above, I think we pretty much all know that common sense means that was an example, not a hard and fast rule and all other social media, past present and future, are exempt.

And still, all of that does not touch the first point I made which is this.

Your sub repeatedly has posts which are from a quarantined subreddit and subsequently voted to /r/all. Here is the intent, clear as day, from the post explaining what a quarantine is intended to achieve.

The purpose of quarantining a community is to prevent its content from being accidentally viewed by those who do not knowingly wish to do so, or viewed without appropriate context.

If the point of a sub being quarantined is to prevent its content from being accidentally viewed but those who do not knowingly wish to do so, explain how your subreddit posting screenshots from a quarantined subreddit isn't doing just that? Your sub is purposely locating objectionable material to post and then boosting it to /r/all.

Let's return to the content policy, section 4, 3rd bullet.

  • Creating multiple accounts to evade punishment or avoid restrictions

Are you creating multiple accounts to evade restrictions? No. Are you circumventing the clear intent of a quarantining a sub? Absolutely. So, again, at best technically correct but pretty scummy. Also, probably a content policy hole /u/worstnerd and gang need to plug because what's the point of quarantining a sub to prevent unwanted views by the general population only to have any Tom, Dick and Harry to screencap it, post it to an unquarantined sub, and have the same people still see it unwanted?

Are you saying you want the TOS changed and special rules applied to the many meta subreddits?

I'm saying that, at best, you're toeing the line so closely it's being smudged into oblivion and at worse you're already violating the TOS. My view is the latter, and it all hinges on one setting that I alluded to in this post.

I notice that you fail to mention r/WatchRedditDie, r/subredditcancer, r/shitpoliticssays and other subs of that ilk. Arethey exempt?

I didn't mention them for one simple reason. Do I see them on /r/all on a near daily basis? No.

Most of the above is an issue because it hits /r/all constantly. It is boosted to the view of anyone who clicks that link. That means people who are unaware of your sub's specific rules. In my view it is a clear violation of the quarantine to repost quarantined material and then boost it to a level where it hits /r/all regardless of whether you are for or against that material. I also feel that posting usernames in the clear from this, or other social media sites, especially if they are apt to be real names (like from Twitter) is in many cases a violation of the personal information clause of the TOS and also the harassment clause through the disincentivizing people from posting clause.

Yet, all it takes for you to drop that is to go to Moderation Tools, Subreddit Settings, Other Options and uncheck at least the first of these two options:

  • allow this subreddit to be exposed to users in /r/all, /r/popular, default, and trending lists
  • allow this subreddit to be exposed to users who have shown intent or interest through discovery and onboarding

By not exposing your sub to /r/all you are no longer posting quarantined material counter to the stated purpose of the quarantine. You're not engaging in overt disincentivizing people from posting by having them run across those in /r/all. And in the cases of subs which do post from other social media sites at least they have to dig for the information which is clearly against the TOS.

EDIT: Or, you know, remove those posts from your sub when reported as is your responsibility as a moderator.

permalinkparentcontexthide replies (1)author-focusas-ofpreserve
[–]maybesaydie5 points6 years ago

All of this is about TMOR? A tiny subreddit with not even 300k subscribers? You see the sub on r/all every day? How far down are you scrolling?

No, we're not going to voluntarily exclude ourselves from r/all. If the admins wanted to they could and would. I don't believe that we're in violation of any part of the TOS and I'm sure, again, that if we were the admins would be in contact.

I know it's practically a meme at this point but I will add that if our content bothers you as much as it seems to you can block the subreddit from r/all or rely on r/Home to avoid seeing it.

permalinkparentcontexthide replies (1)author-focusas-ofpreserve
[–]Greydmiyu3 points6 years ago

All of this is about TMOR? A tiny subreddit with not even 300k subscribers?

No, about several subs, a selection of which I offered as examples, one of which was TMOR.

You see the sub on r/all every day?

Nearly daily, no more than 3-4 pages when bored in the afternoon. If you get close to 1k upvotes on something in a reasonable amount of time you can hit the first few pages of /r/popular.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TopMindsOfReddit/top/?sort=top&t=month

As of right now you have to scroll to position 42 to get to the last post with at least 1k upvotes. All of those posts. 42 possible posts in 30 days. 15 of those 42 posts are screencaps NP links to /r/the_donald, a quarantined sub. So at least one post every other day in the past month from your sub that probably hit r/popular has come from a quarantined sub. And you're pulling a Steve Urkel, "Did we do thaaaaaat?"

permalinkparentcontexthide replies (1)author-focusas-ofpreserve
[–]maybesaydie11 points6 years ago

TMOR is a sub which strives to entertain by pointing out nonsensical and ignorant submissions from reddit users. We don't restrict submissions from any subreddit. But we don't turn down much content either. If you're suggesting that we have some sort of requirement that T_D content is preferred you're wrong. They just happen to have a lot of relevant content.

permalinkparentcontexthide replies (2)author-focusas-ofpreserve
[–][deleted]-1 points6 years ago
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[–]Greydmiyu-2 points6 years ago

Not the issue. If you subscribers were trolling through CTH and getting it on /r/popular the point would still stand.

Quarantined content is being reposted outside the quarantine and boosted to the very place the quarantine was supposed to prevent it from being visible from.

The point is the quarantine, not the source. It just happens the most popular source for your sub is T_D.

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[–]digera0 points6 years ago

the "troll" you're looking for is actually spelled "trawl"

permalinkparentcontexthide replies (1)author-focusas-ofpreserve
[–]Greydmiyu1 point6 years ago

Crap, you're right. Thanks much. Can't believe I brain farted on that.

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[–]TotesMessenger8 points6 years ago

I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

  • [/r/drama] An alpha janitor, who is certainly not doing it for free, comes in to talk to the beta janitors, who are absolutely doing it for free. One of them asks - "What about teh_donald?"

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[–][deleted]1 point6 years ago
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[–]maybesaydie10 points6 years ago

I thought you guys were leaving reddit. How's your new site coming along?

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[–]TheNerdyAnarchist7 points6 years ago

I thought you guys were leaving reddit.

They're just waiting for that final ban hammer so they can cry victim one last time.

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[–]worstnerdReddit Admin: Safety14 points6 years ago

In general, we really encourage users to report content directly to mods. There are a number of reasons why users dont always do this: 1. They don't know how. 2. They don't receive a response quickly enough and start trying to get ahold of anyone that they think will respond. 3. They don't think the mods will act in good faith.
There is not great solution to any/all of these issues outside of education. But first and foremost, I want to encourage the reporting of policy violating content, bonus points for it going through the correct flow.

permalinkparentcontexthide replies (5)author-focusas-ofpreserve
[–]mizmoose3 points6 years ago

The flip side is those who don't understand that the report button goes to the mods, not the admins. I've seen users submit reports as if they're telling the admins what bad mods we are, clearly hoping that the 'admins' will see their reports and punish the mods.

It's kind of a sideways weaponizing of the report function.

permalinkparentcontexthide replies (2)author-focusas-ofpreserve
[–]TheNerdyAnarchist6 points6 years ago

I've seen users submit reports as if they're telling the admins what bad mods we are, clearly hoping that the 'admins' will see their reports and punish the mods.

lol - I get these once in a blue moon. More often than not, it gives me a good chuckle...it's simultaneously annoying and entertaining.

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[–]maybesaydie0 points6 years ago

It's more a misfire than weaponizing.

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[–][deleted]3 points6 years ago* (edited 37 minutes after)
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[–]TheNewPoetLawyerette7 points6 years ago

Every time I've reported something in one of my subs to an admin, I've gotten a matching mod-level report.

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[–]Meloetta0 points6 years ago

Any user who knows how to report to the admins surely knows how to report to the mods?

We get a ton of people that swear they totally reported something but it didn't show up on our end - I highly suspect that a huge amount of reddit users don't actually know which reports go to admins and which go to mods.

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[–][deleted]0 points6 years ago
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[–]Greydmiyu0 points6 years ago

Great, I've been doing that for weeks now on the following. Should I start reporting to admins instead given that I have no expectation of the mods of those subs, or the many others like them, to do anything about the content they are fostering? I mean it's two check boxes for them to correct the problem and they can't be buggered to do that much.

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[–]DisgruntledWageSlave-6 points6 years ago

3.

Your default mods have acted and continue to act in bad faith.

I won't bore you by rehashing user complaints of all the things they do that are driving away users and ruining Reddit for regular people. Instead I will mention this.

Remember when a bunch of default moderators were talking about going dark and blackmailing Reddit by shutting down the subreddits they "control"?

That is the kind of bad faith that causes people to avoid reporting things to the mods and go directly to the admins. At this point many many many default moderators are the enemy of the normal user and a bane on the free exchange of ideas and discussion.

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[–][deleted]6 points6 years ago
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[–][deleted]9 points6 years ago

This is terrible! Awful! Unfathomable! Deplorable! Disastrous! Astonishing! Won't anyone think of the poor marginalized internet trolls and bigots who are being driven from Reddit by mods who don't want their communities to be a never-ending Aristocrats joke? Won't anyone think of how they are forced to move on to one of the hundreds of other platforms that will allow and even encourage them to be the worst possible version of a human being they can be?

Oh!, the humanity.

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[–][deleted]8 points6 years ago
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[–]mary-anns-hammocks5 points6 years ago

This is exactly it. It isn't just about being able to say vile things consequence-free.

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[–]DisgruntledWageSlave-5 points6 years ago

Actively post and moderates in a subreddit that labels other users Nazi for having any conservative leanings. Doesn't see how they might be part of a very serious problem. Tosses out snide quip to one up and kill conversation rather than encourage continued and open dialogue in a subreddit for "all" moderators to discuss this issue.

Nope. Reddit is clearly working exactly as intended.

permalinkparentcontexthide replies (2)author-focusas-ofpreserve
[–]maybesaydie8 points6 years ago

Your user history is amazing. All of the participation you favor is available to you on Voat, censorship free. I always curious why more of you don't avail yourself of such a wonderful resource. If free speech absolutism is the goal it's already available in exactly the same format.

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[–]TotesMessenger-1 points6 years ago

I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

  • [/r/watchredditdie] With impunity and a total disregard for the rules we see TopMods in their natural habitat being enabled by a complete lack of Administrative moderation

 If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / Contact)

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[–]maybesaydie5 points6 years ago

There are no default mods and haven't been any for years.

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