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Games designed in mind with a community driven wiki in mind has got to be the worst trend in modern game design. Not even 90s point and clicks were that bad.
Apparently, as per Nikita, we're just supposed to not look up any of it and also stumble blindly around the maps until we learn the extremely ambiguosly named (and often totally unmarked) extracts
Some here defend that idea endlessly and push against adding QOL to the game, as if they didn't also have all the maps and wiki pulled up in a second monitor too lmao
Everyone streams on discord for their teammates as well, so not having spectating in the main game is also pointless
I feel Nakita wants orienteering and land navigation to a skill that players have to use to play the game. Cool idea, terrible execution.
The problem is you spend 1 fucking game wandering around a map with a backpack full of loot trying to figure out how the hell to extract and you're like "fuck this I'm looking it up on Youtube"
Motherfucker I still need a map for woods.
Extra Credits has a really good video on when James Portnow got hired as a designer to a game mid development of an RPG. He asked "how do I open the inventory?"
The answer? Triple click the player. This was a major "Okay you guys are sniffing your own farts" moment. I don't think BSG has ever had that moment.
This is how Tarkov was originally meant to be played as it had launched.
Basically a "you play it, you figure it out on your own" style of game. Which was honestly fine as back then the game was actually meant and designed around the idea of "figure this shit out yourself"
Granted, a lot of extracts didn't have indications of what they were, and where they were at. But given raids were 50 minutes long, and back then food and drink was just a placeholder, none of that shit really mattered so long as you weren't dead. You had all the time in the world to stumble around aimlessly and find the extracts. Was it good design? No. But it wasn't like it was inherently impossible.
Eventually they added maps and compasses... years late mind you. But that would have also trivialized echolocating extracts, because extracts are always on the opposite side of the map.
Woods was just inherently terrible designed (still is, just slightly less so) and anyone who argues against doesn't understand what basic map design is. But thats also intentionally the point of the original woods. Was to be a horrible designed shitshow maze of a map. The RUAF and the other extract was meant to be examples of two easily identifiable extracts anyone could run to. (probably more for the devs testing the map then the player)
Now woods is 2.2x larger then its original implementation and worst case scenario you are running 8 minutes across the map to stumble on an extract. Peak game design
Compass was huge for woods, once I studied the map I’d just use my compass to get where ever. Idk how y’all did it pre compass
I memorized the trees (only partially joking).
"Where am I in relation to the only mountain on the map"
i actually used this and the big power lines as an indicator.
also landmines. :(
For the most part, yeah.
Using the mountain as a reference point, there's a decent portion of the map you can at minimum use the mountain and if not, there's plenty of landmarks you can use too.
Only times I have issues is some spawns where I need to spin around and orient myself for a bit
There are definitely a few times I'll confuse myself between scav house spawn and in between bunker and usec camp spawn, but other than that it's pretty hard to be confused as to where you are. People just don't play enough woods then blame the game. Or as usual play without a thought in their head then wonder why they don't get better when they're not actively trying to improve.
Nakatani basement stairs is the first time I've found an extract without a map. Name of the store is in the extract name and plastered on the building in huge letters, lots of green exit signs and arrows. I can't imagine trying to crack bunker hermetic door or the difference between the sixteen roadblocks on customs on my own, though.
Far more likely to stumble into some Land Mines, after 8 minutes of mindless running, than you are an Extract on Woods now.
Can you actually imagine the experience stumbling through this game without any guidance at all? Emptying mags of PRS into players and nothing happening. Getting insta killed by scav bosses before you even see any of them or their guards. Needing to find some folder somewhere on customs and having zero fucking idea because the quest text is absolutely idiotic and gives you almost zero good information...
Well thats kinda how things were in 2017 and 2018. I stumbled my way through this game back when /r/tarkovtrading was a subreddit where I would list tushonka for 30k each and have to group with strangers to sell them in game, since you needed 30 for the quest.
I didn't give up on this game because there was nothing else comparable. There still isn't, unfortunately. But we deserve better. And it's not complicated. It's really simple.
It is doable, but the main issue with this playstyle is time. You need to spend time on failure to learn and progress. But as you understand this, it becomes overwhelming and you just give up. I would assume that is what happens for most of the adult playerbase that are interested in Tarkov. I already know most of the maps, except for streets which I'm not going to learn. I'm a dad, have 2 jobs and can play like 2 raids at a time. I want to have a little fun damn it, I don't want to have 3 jobs lol. BUt I know if I wouldn't have played this game when I was younger and less busy, right now I couldnt really play it.
I’d reckon most players don’t need to check a map every five seconds once they actually know the layout, and that’s kind of the point.
And “everyone uses discord” is a pretty stupid argument.
“Might as well let dead people talk in Phasmophobia/Lethal Company because they’re gonna ghost in discord anyways”
Or we just let the people who want to have the intended experience do what they want and everyone else can stop crying about having to look up a wiki.
And so much of it is just whiny bullshit. Old adventure games and RPGs had countless inscrutable mechanics or ways you could soft-lock yourself if you made the wrong choice and there was no strategy guide, fan-made wiki, or subreddit for people to look up the correct solution.
Not everyone wants every game to hold your hand and wipe for you.
Phasmophobia/Lethal Company aren't PvP and half the fun is sticking to the "rules" even if nobody forces you to.
Not being in discord in a PvP game when playing with teammates is actively shooting yourself in the foot, not having a map open when learning maps is stupid, not consulting ammo websites when you don't know them is stupid, blindly trying to resolve what the fuck the shoddily written and translated quest texts mean while getting shot at by players instead of having the wiki open is stupid.
Literally nobody is doing this, only some dipshits like you jack off to the "intended experience". I know you learned the maps by looking them up online, you looked up the ammos, you looked up the quests. Like literally everyfuckingbody else. Don't pretend you haven't lmao
This doesn't mean I want a minimap implemented or some immersion-breaking shit. But usable interactable ingame maps instead of the worthless ones we have? Spectating your teammates when dead? Ammo stats? Non-dogshit quest text?
There is a gulf of QoL they can do between immersion and handholding, but don't let nuance hit your brain anytime soon
The guy who hasn’t looked up anything but has played thousands of hours still sucks, is broke, and only uses the same extract he happened to stumble across a few years ago.
Oof, thanks for the reminder to stay off Reddit. Happy new year!
You're delusional if you think this game would even exist without 3rd party help. Players would literally never find the folder in the railcar without a wiki or YouTube videos explaining it.
The game is absolute nonsense without 3rd party resources and BSG have just gotten complacent and now rely on them to guide players through tasks.
Some of the tasks are so fucking convoluted that 99.999% of players would absolutely never complete them. The lightkeeper tasks? You think ANYBODY would get that done without some help? Cmon...
The problem isn’t people who already know how to play the game needing to have their hand held, it’s newer people who basically are forced to have either a friend or the wiki teach them the game, because the game doesn’t teach you a damn thing.
older games certainly had their fair share of soft locks and confusing game mechanics, but I’ve never had to consult with a veteran player or guide to learn the basics, which I had to do for tarkov.
Tarkov can be brutal and hard without being so poorly explained. Maybe show the actually useful stats? Or maybe have some sort of way for newer players to learn extracts easier without having to just wander the map looking for something that may look like one of their extracts.
I 100% agree with this, especially the last part. As someone who doesn't know any of the maps I can't tell you how many times I just go to a place that "looks like an extract" and just hope the little countdown in the corner pops up.
Yesterday I tried ground zero for the first time and while walking through a staircase I randomly stumbled upon an extract.
I had this game since 2021 and I always stop playing it after a few days because I feel like I just can't compete and I also don't feel like doing a weeks worth of university level research just to know where the damn extract is on the map and which bullet gives me the best chance of doing 1 point of damage to a geared up chad that will one tap me on sight. This game is so insanely unfriendly to casual and new players.
Yeah no lol this aint "hand holding" this is just basic mechanics explaining that even "back in the day" would be necessary, and games without it played like shit unless someone else told you about it
Then you have POE. Where the game would almost become unplayable without volunteer 3rd party tools that constantly need updating like POB and Neversink filters.
Oh. And a wiki. Because there are literally 47 definitions of "nearby"
Look, PoE is not that complicated. Seriously, it's as complex as you want it to be. Are you going to make a wardloop build first thing as a brand new player with no guides? Of course not. But a simple lightning arrow character or fireball or whatever else, you'll easily make it to act 6 if not maps.
And loot filter? While not the simplest thing, you can write your own. Are they going to be as complex as something done by neversink or with filterblade? No, likely not. But it'll likely be serviceable, I did it for 6+ years before finally switching.
And PoB is a noob trap. Plain and simple, people have no fucking idea what it's used for and develop terrible habits. PoB is for 2 things: figuring out if a piece of gear is an upgrade without having to do the math yourself, and tree summations. But people rely on it for making entire builds (pointless, it's 99% feel and you won't get that from PoB), or terrible tree comparisons (great way to get stuck in a local minimum instead of actual optimal).
And yeah, nearby is a problem. It's often not a huge issue tbh, nothing experimental testing can't validate, but if you're trying to plan out and see nearby, yeah, you probably want to wiki that.
Cap
At least in 90s RPG's you could click around the screen until you found the next pixel that let you progress.
I'd love to do an experiment by locking someone in a room and seeing how many hours of gameplay it takes for someone to successfully extract from Woods.
I’m cringing thinking about how I’d sell an item or toss it to make room only to find out I needed it for a puzzle and can’t get it back.
At that point, you're just doing an experiment to determine how long someone can be alone with no face-to-face human contact before going batshit insane.